Memory Beta:Votes for approval of supplemental images

Vanguard emblem and Katie Sackoff as Vale
Two images have come up recently on the Trek BBS that I thought we should consider using, pending permission of the artists of course.

The Vanguard emblem was created by Vanguard series editor Marco Palmieriand refined by designer Masao Okazaki, and can be seen here...

This Katee Sackoff as Christine Vale pic was created by a TrekBBS user named Starfury and can be seen here...

I like this one, especially given our community's previous, unsuccessful efforts at a Vale image.

We can vote while I try to obtain creator permission.


 * Yes on the Vanguard emblem, as it was created by the same two people responsible for the design of Starbase 47 and the USS Sagitarrius.
 * No on Vale, as it is an unlicensed piece of fanwork, and also because it uses the image of a real-life person who has no actual connection to Trek.

--Seventy 01:55, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Then what about our image of President Eisenhower as Min Zife? We don't disallow images just because they are fanwork if they are good work. This forum was created to separate the good from the bad. Many of the authors who have written Vale have stated on the Trek BBS that Sackoff would be the perfect choice for Vale. --Turtletrekker 02:12, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Then what about our image of President Eisenhower as Min Zife? -- Uh... what about it? I voted against that abomination, too, and would love nothing more than to see it deleted ASAP.  So, what is your point?  --Seventy 04:41, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Then maybe we should vote on the Zife image again because including one but not the other is hypocrisy of massive Memory Alpha proportions. It's an artists interpretation, and this wiki used to be flexable enough to include them. Sadly this wiki is resembling the ridiculously ridgid MA more each and every day which can only serve to this wiki's detriment. Stuff like this is the reason I don't go to MA and may soon be the reason I abandon this place as well. --Turtletrekker 14:45, 14 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, to the Vanguard image, but no to Sackhoff. I would rather wait to see Vale on a Titan cover (it'll happen sometime), but since Sackhoff is "endorsed" by Marco and the others, I could accept it. However, I don't feel this image cuts it. If we want a Sackhoff-as-Vale image, I can design one specifically for the wiki, using a real-screencap uniform, rather than that Poser-created body. Just say the word. --TimPendragon 06:36, 14 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes to the Vanguard insignia since it originated from the creators of the concept. No on Sackhoff as Christine Vale as the image currently exists.  I think we can do better than a photo head on a CGI body.  That said, I'm not thrilled with the idea of using Sackhoff's likeness.  At first glance, the image looked like Starbuck in a Starfleet uniform whereas the Min Zife image did not immediately ring out and scream Dwight Eisenhower to me.  Perhaps that's the caveat of makeup.  Were Vale a Tellarite, I doubt we'd be having this discussion.  I know Marco et al. have all said Sackhoff would be a perfect choice for Christine Vale, but there has to be someone else who fits the bill and isn't the star of another popular sci-fi show.--Julianbaischir 15:21, 14 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Definitely Yes for the Vanguard insignia, and after properly studying the proposed image of Christine Vale, I would say a provisional Yes for that image, until an image becomes available from a novel cover (or hopefully a comic). Having pictures in an article definitely enhances the article.--The Doctor 15:50, 14 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes to both, I really like the Vanguard emblem and I think the fact that Marco created makes it pretty much official. As for the Vale pick, I've always been a big fan of the idea of Katee Sackoff being Chris, and since this is the best we've gotten so far, I say we use it. At least until Vale appears on a Titan cover, which probably won't be for at least a year or two, and I'm sorry but I really want to see some sort of image for Vale till then. --JDB

Well, KRAD now says over at TrekBBS: "I never pictured [Amanda] Tapping for Vale, but I can't think of a good reason why not, sooooo....." So, someone tell me why we should use a Sackoff-as-Vale image here instead of a Tapping-as-Vale pic? --Seventy 02:02, 15 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Why not have both? Why would we want to limit creativity? This database isn't about creating one strict interpretation of what Trek ought or ought not to be -- which is why we accept info from all licensed sources, even contradictory ones! I don't see why we can't have multiple visual interpretations of a character in lieu of an official image of the character from a book. Yes to the Vanguard insignia and Yes to the Sackoff picture. -- Sci 03:54 15 OCT 2006 UTC


 * Why would we want to limit creativity? Well, if this is a site for unlimited creativity, let's lift the restriction on non-licensed sources.  Let's just make up any shit we want and throw it in wherever we please, and to hell with the stated purpose of the wiki!  Seriously, how do you justify disallowing textual information from unlicensed stories, and allowing unlicensed images?
 * And, not for nothing... but have you looked at the Christine Vale article recently? It stops dead at Taking Wing, with no effort to integrate any additional information from the last two Titan novels. (And, if you check the history log, you'll see we've gone through an entire other image debate with still no substantive additions to the article!)  Right now, anyone coming to this wiki looking for established information on Vale will see that, and conclude this site is not very thorough.  Add a picture of Katee Sackoff's head on a Starfleet uniform, and anyone coming for information will conclude this wiki is not very serious.
 * The only reason I'm here is because I want a serious site. Look at my contribution log, look at how many new articles I have to my credit.  I want an informational site that I, as a Trek Lit fan, can use and refer to like I do the ST Encyclopedia and "Memory Alpha", and I'm willing to put the effort of combing through old books in order to create it.  And I get very discouraged when I see my fellow contributors putting more passion into arguing for Photoshop images, and for "expressing creativity".  If that's going to be the purpose of the site, then why should I even bother anymore? --Seventy 19:04, 15 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I for one don't know why you think that there's some distinction between being a serious resource and encouraging creativity.


 * Secondly, we justify not including info from non-licensed sources while including nonlicensed fan images because we only allow fan images of subjects from licensed works, and, further, because we do not allow all of them but only those approved of on a case-by-case basis, and, on top of that, because we delete said images when a licensed image becomes available. Just look at the Gorn Hegemony image deletion that's being undertaken.


 * Thirdly, if you're that dissatisfied with the Christine Vale article proper, then I suggest that you add to it! I haven't expanded it because the character doesn't interest me, because I have limited time with which to contribute, and because I'm more interested in other subjects, but by all means, this is a team effort! Why do I take the time to argue over images like these if I don't take the time to work on the articles themselves? Because I don't want to see this wiki turn restrictive like Memory Alpha!


 * And, yes, Seventy, thank you very much for all of your contributions -- you are making this a better wiki. But this wiki isn't about restricting creativity -- it's about providing information on licensed work subjects and canonical subjects. We've chosen to interpret that as also providing supplemental, fan-created images of licensed works' subjects until such time as licensed images become available because including more graphical elements makes the wiki a more informative, more user-friendly database. And since differences of interpretation are a major component of reading literary works, it becomes perfectly appropriate for there to even be multiple supplemental images reflecting the different interpretations of the works that are out there.


 * Please, let's not turn into an incredibly strict Memory Alpha wannabe. Let's be open and creative and informative and comprehensive. -- Sci 19:44 15 OCT 2006 UTC


 * Bravo, Sci. --Turtletrekker 20:58, 15 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Maybe because we actually have  a Sackoff pic, and incidently, permission from the artist, who is thrilled at the prospect of his/her pic being used here, and has expressed interest in helping us out further.
 * Arguments about creativity aside, I'm of the opinion that people coming through the site who aren't privy to the discussions about fantasy casting on TrekBBS would view a picture of Sackhoff (or Tapping) in a Starfleet uniform as "cheesy." Especially if it's a Poser-created CGI uniform as that picture is. No offense to the artist, it's a good image, but it doesn't look "realistic" enough. If everyone wants an image of Sackhoff, then let's create one specifically for the wiki, based on actual screencaps. Ultimately, though, I'm against the idea of a Vale image altogether until we get one on a novel cover. I also hate the Eisenhower-Zife image. Had I been here when that went up, I'd have voted against it. --TimPendragon 00:07, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

A bit late here but... the Vanguard emblem vote is moot now, since we lack permission, as Turtletrekker notes below. As for the Sackoff-as-Vale pic, I'll give a qualified "no". Even before getting into the other issues involved, that particlular shot of Sackoff is simply too iconographic of her as Kara Thrace/Starbuck (it's from a Galactica publicity shot, am I correct?). That's probably one of the biggest technical barriers to creating such images: the highest-resolution originals to work from are usually too well-known to be used here.--Emperorkalan 11:28, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Vanguard Emblem

 * Yes --Turtletrekker 01:34, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes --Seventy 01:55, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes --TimPendragon 06:36, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes --The Doctor 06:46, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes --Julianbaischir 14:55, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes --JDB
 * Yes --Sci 03:54 15 OCT 2006 UTC

It's a shame that we have a image that everybody agrees on, but not the permission of the creator. Marco Palmieri finally e-mailed me back and wrote the following...


 * The Vanguard emblem is purely tentative at this point, so I think it would be counterproductive to put something on Memory Beta that may never become official within the context of the Vanguard novels. Thanks for the interest, though.

Oh, well. --Turtletrekker 00:19, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Katie Sackoff as Vale

 * Yes --Turtletrekker 01:34, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
 * No --Seventy 01:55, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
 * No --TimPendragon 06:36, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes --The Doctor 06:46, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
 * No --Julianbaischir 14:55, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes --JDB
 * Yes--Sci 03:54 15 OCT 2006 UTC
 * No--8of5 23:05, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
 * No--Emperorkalan 11:28, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Starship Images
Following the debarkle I made with images for the Larson-class, I figured I should do this through the right channels this time.

It would be nice to have images for several starship classes from the TOS era as featured in FASA or the Star Fleet Technical Manual. There are several CGI images for the Saladin-class, Hermes-class, the Federation-class and the Loknar-class on this page on Trekmania.net.

So pending the correct permission from the images creator, should these images be included on the wiki?

VOTES DISCUSSION
 * Yes --The Doctor 21:14, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes - Conditionally -- 8of5 01:25, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I'd say yes, but with only if there is not a licensed alternative. We are meant to be chronicling licensed sources, seems silly to outright ignore one just because we can find a prettier version elsewhere. -- 8of5 01:25, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Vale Image
This image has just been uploaded, it isn't great quality, has text up one side, and the appearance of Vale is a controversial issue, still I thought I'd test it here before taking the deletion route, bit of variety. -- 8of5 17:15, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

VOTES
 * No --8of5 17:15, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

DeathTongue
It has previously been noted that DeathTongue may be a reference to something that appeared in a comic strip, this was noted as background information and an image of the entire band is on the talk page. That is interesting and appropriate, I don't feel it so to take the logo from that comic and, without any indication from the author that there is any connection at all, allocate it to the trekverse band. It might be appropriate to move the whole band image into the main article within the background section, it seems wrong to make up any actually connection between the two. -- 8of5 23:05, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

VOTES
 * Keep -- Data Noh 23:17, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep --Turtletrekker 00:05, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep --Emperorkalan 11:31, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

DISCUSSION Since the comic strip reference is apparently deemed relevant enough to include in a footnote on the page itself, I figured the band logo from the strip (the only image that would be available) would be equally relevant. I don't really see this as any less accurate than the community-accepted fanon logos we use for various organizations (such as the FNS), unless there are copyright issues of which I am unaware (if there are, I'm up for immediately deleting this). -- Data Noh 23:17, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Thing is, we do have "any indication from the author" -- Dayton Ward's story annotations -- which is linked to directly from the "Almost... But Not Quite" article. I'm mystified as to why this is now suddenly the standard of image acceptability, since to the best of my knowledge, David Mack has never said Min Zife looks anything like Eisenhower. --Seventy 23:25, 19 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I refer the naysayers to Dayton Ward's Annotations.


 * "Page 261: "DeathTongue." A reference to a Sunday edition of the great "Bloom County" comic strip. "DeathTongue" was the name of a band that Bill the Cat and company formed, a precursor to the more mainstream "Billy and the Boingers." I have their first album up for auction on eBay."

Data Noh: Well the difference is acknowledging where a name came from (as the annotations do) and saying they are one in the same is very different, if the band in the trekverse and Bill the Cats band are meant to be one in the same then fine, but that wasn't clear from the previous note, it was just random connection.

And Seventy I quite agree, if I'd have been involved when alot of our supplimental images were suggested I'd have voted against. We dont need author approval, but we also shouldnt make unnesisary jumps, the annotations confirm the link, I accept that, but without that it was just two fictional bands that happened to share a name. -- 8of5 00:14, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Altered Harb Tanzer Image
]] The only official image ever released of novel character Harb Tanzer (top image) in comic form was colored wrong in two significant ways-- first, his hair in the novels is always described as being white, not brown. Second, his uniforms turtleneck and strap are the wrong departmental color.

I started "fixing" the image, seeing if a more accurate rendition could be made. For the green of the turtlneck and strap, I extracted the color of McCoy's uniform found.

For the hair, I tried to "replace the dark brown with a darker grey and the lighter brown with white. I tried to keep the texture and style of the hair consistant with the original image, but that was the tricky part. The bottom image is what I came up with.

I think that, if approved, the line about the coloring error that is currently there, should be replaced with something like, "The above image has been altered in order to portay a more accurate image of the character. For the image in it's original form click here. ."

Votes

 * Yes--Turtletrekker 06:50, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
 * No -- Data Noh 12:49, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
 * No --Seventy 14:26, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
 * No --8of5 15:07, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Discussion
I'm not familiar with this character, can you explain why the image should be changed to reflect how he is described in an appearance in a novel over how he actually appears in a comic? --8of5 06:59, 5 May 2007 (UTC)


 * In all of Diane Duane's novels, and he is in most of them, his "shock-white" hair is often described as his most noticable feature. I know comics back then didn't like to use a lot of white because the image on the other side of the old newsprint comic page would bleed through, so that may have been the source of the error.
 * As for the uniform, as Captain Mike pointed out in the article, Tanzer is always described as being under McCoy, in a sub-section of medical. Hence the green. --Turtletrekker 07:05, 5 May 2007 (UTC)


 * ETA: I've actually found his hair described as "silver" in "The Wounded Sky" (Ch.2), "Spock's World" (Enterprise: one), and "My Enemy, My Ally"(Ch.2) with a minimum of searching. I'm sure I remember the "shock-white" decription from somewhere. --Turtletrekker 07:17, 5 May 2007 (UTC)


 * But this is how he appeared in the comic, if a character was described in books as having big ears and then had little ones in the comic would you want to magic them big? There was a discussion over at the Trek BBS recently over how one of the New Frontier characters had less red than described (in the novels) skin the Double Time, same issue?
 * The character could have dyed his hair and had a go in another department for a few weeks? Who knows, but from the sounds of it this isn't much different than any other continuity issue, show both note differences. --8of5 07:11, 5 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I would be more in favor of only using the original licensed images, and noting any discrepancies. -- Data Noh 12:49, 5 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes that was what I meant actually, show the original, the both being the text decribing him differently, and note the differences. --8of5 13:56, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

I find it fascinating that this topic would even be broached before there was even an effort at writing a halfway decent article for the character. When the explanatory sidenote for the complementary illustration is 3x longer than the actual entry, there's something very wrong. To hell with the pic, in either form. --Seventy 14:26, 5 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Agreed, absolutely. --Vote Saxon 20:51, 5 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree with the spirit of your comment, but not your tone, Seventy. The supplementary image is probably not going to be called for, but a simple "no" would have sufficed. -- Captain MKB 16:01, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Statueofliberty.jpg
I added this Statue of Liberty image, which was from the U.S Government National Park Service web site. The only image I could find of the statue from a licensed source that I have access to is from the Enterprise episode Storm Front where it's in the background of films showing the alternate timeline version of Hitler visiting New York City. As far as I know that's the only time the statue ever appears in a Trek related movie or TV offering. If there's one from a comic book that I don't have access to, I would hope someone could upload the image. Servo 15:47, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Votes

 * No --8of5 16:28, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes --Servo 18:10, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
 * No -- Data Noh 20:28, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Discussion
If we have an in-universe shot I think we should use it, which we do Image:AdolfHitler1944.jpg, even if it is a fuzzy background shot. I feel supplemental images should only be used when there is absolutely no alternative. And don't forget to vote yourself Servo. --8of5 16:28, 12 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Agreed... speaking of, do we have a policy on "real-life" information? This is an example; the Statue of Liberty page includes some information on the statue that I would imagine was never addressed by any Trek source. -- Data Noh 20:28, 12 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Might be one of those not written down ones, but yes we do, keep it to a bare mininium, what is assumed knowledge for whatever reference in-universe it does have. Servo has something of a passion for extranious real world info. --8of5 22:06, 12 May 2007 (UTC)