Talk:Federation Starfleet ranks (2240s-2260s)

This name is very much a generalization right now -- as discussed on my talk page, this uniform and rank stripe set was also now revealed to be in use in the 2240s by IDW's Crew. We know that these lasted until the 2260s, but no solid beginning date is established. We also are about to see more details in upcoming productions about a different uniform that was in use in the year 2233, as first seen on the licensed from Intel. This means these uniforms & ranks we currently identify as "2250s" may be better described as "2240s" but may even be "2230s" -- Captain MKB 17:56, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

Ensigns and Cadets
What insignia do ensigns and cadets wear in this phase?

In Early Voyages, Colt doesn't wear a sleeve stripe on her duty uniform until issue 10, when she began to wear a solid gold stripe (i.e. not a CPO stripe). The stripe stayed until issue 13, when it disappeared while she was in an alternate future. In issues 16 and 17, after her return, she didn't have stripes in several panels, but Number One's stripes are also missing in many panels (they do appear in some). The series was plagued by rank errors at first, but had cleared them up by about issue 8, except the last two issues, which were drawn by a different artist. (Editorial commented on the earlier errors on the letters page.)

Captain's Log: Pike, established that Pike put Colt in for immediate promotion just after the Enterprise returned from Talos IV. It's possible that her sleeve stripe represented a promotion from ensign to lieutenant. Twelve years later, she was a captain, which would have been difficult if she weren't an officer in Early Voyages.

All of the officers shown wearing sold gold stripes on these uniforms whose ranks are known are lieutenants or above, except in Star Trek: Crew, where Number One, Griggs, etc. are called "cadets," and an admiral is shown wearing a single solid gold stripe. Number One, etc. might be lieutenants, like Kirk, et al. in the 2009 movie. Crew does say that they're part of that year's graduating class, like dialogue suggested Kirk was in the movie. Finnegan is shown not wearing stripes as a cadet, and Colt etc. don't wear them in the Early Voyages Talosian illusion of the Academy.

I think it's possible that lieutenants and above wear a solid gold stripe, CPOs wear a complicated gold stripe, and ensigns, cadets and junior enlisted crew wear no stripes. Is there evidence that shows that ensigns and non-Lt cadets wear stripes? --Archimedean 22:35, September 12, 2010 (UTC)


 * While that's possible as an alternate interpretation, it is also possible that she was enlisted, but became eligible for officer's commission with that promotion, perhaps due to her previous Academy attendance.


 * I'm afraid that both your postulation on ensigns and the current article status required some open interpretation to formulate. The article was written with the interpretation that the ranks were sequential from no stripe (enl) to open-braided stripe (nco) to solid stripe (officer). Your interpretation is based on the length of time it takes to become captain, which is obviously subjective, and the assumption of officer's status stemming immediately from Academy attendance, which is not written in stone, as the future service is only quasi-military with some parts of the rank structure being only loosely defined at times, in canon Star Trek.


 * As to Crew, I could see the group being transitional officer cadets that were properly wearing their officer insignia, and I'm not sure what to make of the one-stripe admiral except to group it with one-stripe Pike as a possible casual wear of an officer's uniform. -- Captain MKB 23:40, September 12, 2010 (UTC)


 * I know my suggestion is as speculative as the current article. I favor it over the simple stripe progression, but my point here was to make a case that was as solid as the article's, for a different system.


 * I think that ensigns should be separated from the other officer ranks on the table, and marked as "insignia unestablished," like CPOs and LCRs on Earth Starfleet ranks. Between Crew, Early Voyages and TOS, the insignia for all other ranks has been firmly established, but insignia for ensign can be argued - not demonstrated - either way. --Archimedean 00:26, September 13, 2010 (UTC)


 * I spoke too soon. Crew issue 5 shows Spock as an ensign, and his sleeve is consistently drawn without insignia.  All lieutenants, etc. are consistently drawn with a single solid stripe. --Archimedean 00:29, September 13, 2010 (UTC)


 * I see that your notations on the table below indicate that a red-shirted ensign also appeared (in "Shakedown") with no sleeve insignia. You leave out, though, that Number One appeared with a stripe on her sleeve in "The Bottle", where she was addressed as "Ensign."  (The stripe actually appears in one of the 'Gray uniforms' pictures you posted below.)


 * With Number One established as an ensign after "Shakedown", her cadet sleeve insignia becomes an issue again. We saw cadets in three episodes of TOS: Finnegan in "Court Martial", and unnamed background cadets in the field in "Wolf in the Fold" and "The Trouble with Tribbles". We learned from "Republic" that Finnegan was graduated from the academy in 2251, and that Kirk joined the academy only a year before.  (This is corroborated by "Shore Leave", in which Kirk called Finnegan 'an upperclassman', and the simulated Finnegan called Kirk 'plebe').


 * That seems to establish two things that are important to questions you raise: First, at least some cadets in their last year wear uniforms that don't have stripes (this allows your interpretation of Colt's uniform at the academy). Second, at least some cadets in the field do wear silver uniforms that might appear gray. It appears that either some cadets and ensigns wear stripes and some don't, or the stripes in the first two Crew comics are incorrect.


 * It's theoretically possible that the 15-year veteran is either a career enlisted crewman turned officer, or is an instructor wearing a training uniform of some sort, like those used by professors in Early Voyages and seen in Fletcher's uniform chart for the TOS movies (as red slashes on otherwise division-colored shoulder and sleeve bands). I don't think that there's sufficient evidence to conclude that a gray uniform division exists. --Columbia clipper 02:07, September 18, 2010 (UTC)

Gray uniforms
Crew issue 2 shows light blue-gray uniforms, worn by Griggs and Number One. These are shown alongside the darker, saturated blue uniforms; they're definitely a different color. --Archimedean 00:54, September 13, 2010 (UTC)


 * Here are two panels that show the gray and blue uniforms together:
 * Gray and blue uniforms.jpg
 * --Archimedean 05:23, September 13, 2010 (UTC)


 * I think this could be an occurrence of cadet silver gray. I don't share your belief that there is an entire gray division. -- Captain MKB 14:04, September 13, 2010 (UTC)

Tunics
Commodore: Strickland

Captain: Kirk

Lieutenant Commander: Mitchell

Lieutenant: Spock

Lieutenant Junior Grade: Number One

Ensign: Spock

Cadet: Finnegan

Chief Petty Officer: Garrison

Crewman: Smith

Jackets
Captain: Pike

Lieutenant Commander: Number One

Lieutenant: Spock

Ensign: Spock

Crewman: Laser cannon crewman

Colt
The best canon image of Colt's sleeve I can find: (The bottom of her sleeve is usually completely behind her back or otherwise hidden.) 

Colt in Nor Iron Bars a Cage:

Colt in The Fallen:

Colt in Futures, Part One:

Colt at the Academy in Nor Iron Bars a Cage:

Colt's jacket sleeves in The Menagerie:

--Archimedean 04:05, September 13, 2010 (UTC)

I found a better canon picture of Colt's tunic sleeve: --Archimedean 06:21, September 13, 2010 (UTC)

Proposed rank table
Division names are placeholders. Uniform and stripe colors are matched to those in The Menagerie, where applicable. Officers' tunic stripes are slightly lighter and more golden than those used in The Menagerie, to reflect the gold tunic stripes used in Where No Man Has Gone Before. Red and gray uniforms are from the Crew miniseries.

--Archimedean 07:45, September 13, 2010 (UTC)

Discussion of proposal

 * I like the jacket sleeves, they are clearer than using the previous placeholder image and illustrate the subject better.


 * As I said last night, you are introducing some major changes to the rest of the set. I think that, because of this, the community should vote on the images at our Memory Beta:Votes for approval of supplemental images page to work out the kinks i see in the idea to throw out all the previous images.


 * For example, why are the red uniforms a pale dusty rose? I think you are making style choices that don't reflect what you are trying to illustrate, and it will make these graphics inferior to the ones they are replacing.


 * Also for example, as posted above, I disagree with your assumption that there is a gray uniform division. It could be explained as the midshipman/cadet uniform seen in canon. -- Captain MKB 14:11, September 13, 2010 (UTC)


 * The red uniforms are pale because they were pale in Crew issue 5, the only appearance of them I know of. I boosted the saturation a little because I didn't like how pale they looked when they were a color closer to the one in the comic.


 * Crew 5 uniform colors.jpg


 * The gray uniforms might be meant to be the cadet uniforms, but I don't think they are. First, in Crew issue 1, all cadets who are part of the NX-0002 (later Enterprise) training cruise are in regular tunic colors.  Number One wears a coral/brown uniform, Griggs and Ramirez blue, etc.  In Crew issue 2, Number One and Ramirez both wear gray.  An older, balding man called "Doc" may also wear it.  His uniform looks slightly bluer, but the issue's blue uniforms are vividly blue (the officer pictured with Number One is the chief engineer).


 * [[File:Crew 2 doc.jpg]]
 * Gray and blue uniforms.jpg


 * Second, only Number One, Griggs, maybe "Doc", and one other crewmember are shown with gray uniforms. At one point, Griggs, calls an officer in a normal tunic color by his first name.  That wouldn't usually be appropriate behavior for a cadet.  The "other crewmember" (or another person wearing the same color as Number One) says at the end of the issue "I was aboard that bucket of bolts for more than 15 years!"


 * [[File:Fortune survivors.jpg]]


 * Third, in Crew issue 1, an officer says that a classmate of Number One's is "in this year's graduating class." In Crew issue 2, she beams down to a planet when the Fortunes captain orders "Six crew members at the top of the duty roster, report to the transporter room." The general context suggests that she's a regular member of the Fortunes crew.


 * Okay, the supplemental route is fine with me. (Is that regular procedure?  I see only one set of ranks on Memory Beta:Votes for approval of supplemental images/approved.) --Archimedean 17:07, September 13, 2010 (UTC)


 * It is possible for a cadet to be a full member of a vessels crew also, as part of a cadet cruise or undergraduate service program -- look at Saavik, Nog, the nameless cadet crew sometimes seen on assignments in TOS.


 * There are other red uniforms in some DC Comics that are fully saturated as TOS uniforms are.


 * I know you refuse to ackowledge the point, but lighting is always a factor in both illustrations and photos and there's no way to make simplified little graphics address all possible lighting schemes.


 * Since these graphics on this site are only supposed to communicate the general appearance of the ranks, I'd say going with a simplified appearance - the current set of images before yours were added - would be preferable, and I will vote that way. -- Captain MKB 17:20, September 13, 2010 (UTC)


 * I'd appreciate it if you'd be willing to discuss the issue further before making up your mind about your vote.


 * I know that it's possible for a cadet to be a full member of a ship's or station's crew. A cadet also serves as a Yeoman in Vanguard.  But the cadets shown on the NX-0002 in the 2240s wear the same uniforms as other crew members.  Two of those cadets are among the crew members later shown in gray uniforms.  Canon shows cadets wearing normal tunic colors aboard ship in the mid-22nd Century in the alternate universe.  I know this doesn't directly apply, but I think it's circumstantially useful; the two cultures are supposed to be essentially similar.


 * Even if Number One and Griggs still were cadets, the officer/crewman seen standing next to them at the end of the issue is wearing the same color and says that he's been aboard the Fortune for 15 years. "Doc"'s uniform is also unexplained; his uniform color is very different from the chief engineer's blue uniform, but Grigg's uniform in the panel showing "Doc" is the same color as Number One's in the two panels with the chief engineer.  He might be wearing a shiny blue tunic like McCoy's, which could look lighter in direct light than the engineer's does, but the veteran officer/crewman's uniform would still be unexplained.


 * Haven't I mentioned lighting? I'm sure I commented on its effects on the jacket colors and jacket stripe colors.  Even if I didn't, lighting is the reason I included multiple panels that show both of the blue and gray uniforms, both far apart and side-by-side, and chose a picture of the crew at the end that shows crew members in other uniform colors, to show that the veteran officer/crewman is wearing the same color Number One and Griggs are.


 * Could you point me to the TOS comics with red 2240s-2260s uniforms? I'll be happy to fix the color. I don't like the red I used any more than you do.


 * Even without the gray uniforms, I think the new images are preferable. They more accurately reflect the colors of the uniforms shown on TOS.  (I looked at many different lighting conditions in The Menagerie, Charlie X, and Where No Man Has Gone Before and used the colors that most consistently matched.)  This layout also shows that ensigns do not have sleeve stripes, as established in Crew issue 5, actually lists the ranks known to have been used during these years (the article is called "Federation Starfleet ranks (2240s-2260s)", not  "Federation Starfleet rank insignia (2240s-2260s)"), and doesn't presume a rank insignia for commander where none has been established (so far as has been sourced or I can find). --Archimedean 17:45, September 13, 2010 (UTC)


 * There is a red uniform at Unnamed Starfleet personnel -- you'll see it is the regular TOS red.


 * I see what you've missed with the gray-blue doctor -- that individual is wearing the short sleeve "Scrubs" uniform seen on McCoy in TOS -- not a separate division, but a different type of uniform that shows up differently on film and in lighting.


 * If you ever see a picture of Spock and McCoy side by side while Spock in in longsleeves and McCoy is wearing his short sleeves, you see the fabric looks lighter even though they are both wearing the blue of science division. -- Captain MKB 17:52, September 13, 2010 (UTC)

I'm not going to address most of your guys' points, but here are the things that jump out to me: Both the current and these new colours seem off to me. The currents ones are definitely too vibrant, but I think the new versions are also too subtle, something in between would be a good compromise; the new "coral" and gold in particular are quite hard to tell apart. I think lighting is less important in this discussion than artistic interpretation. We have basically the following: So I think canon and the modern comics need to be our lead here. Alien Spotlight: Vulcans is probably quite a good example of a compromise level of vibrancy, it keeps the general muted tones, but also hints at a slightly more vibrant colouring like those in EV. --8of5 18:14, September 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * What we see on screen, quite muted colours (in any lighting).
 * Modern IDW comics have featured these uniforms several times and universally and accurately reflected those muted originals.
 * Early Voyages took some liberties, they have one gold uniform rather than the gold and coral for instance. The overall design of Early Voyages is also a bit more vibrant, though still less so generally than main era TOS uniforms.
 * DC comics featuring these uniforms are very vibrant because the DC comics used an older printing technique with more simplified colours. So I think we need to take those with a pinch of salt, always remembering that canon takes precedence.


 * In reference to the existing set, I agree that the vibrance could be decreased. In fact, if anyone had brought that up as an issue with the existing images, it could have been addressed without necessitating an entire new set. But that's apparently not how our new contributor works.


 * The reason, however, for the increased saturation is illustrative. It is very difficult to note the difference between the two similar divisions in normal lighting. I believe they need to be stepped up just a bit from the norm in order to show that they are different. That's why I would have like to maintain the graphics as existing, with possible minor adjustments, and possibly show screencaps to show further detail like texture of the stripes, etc. I don't believe these small graphics would be at all effective in portraying the stripe texture changes that did occur between the two major canon appearances of these insignia. -- Captain MKB 18:22, September 13, 2010 (UTC)

I think I'm missing something here, other than the vibrancy differences, minor variations in how the stripes are drawn, and the addition of a grey colour and omission of green in this newer set, I can’t see much else that is different. What is in contention?

And I agree we need to make sure we can tell the gold and "coral" colours apart, but I think we can do that while keeping the colours overall accurately muted. That's why I referenced the Alien Spotlight issue, it does a good job of making those colours a little more distinct while still respecting the onscreen style. --8of5 18:35, September 13, 2010 (UTC)


 * I find that I agree -- the new set is far too muted to be used. The red doesn't do it for me, and I can't readily tell the difference between the gold and sand color uniforms. I would have been more than happy to edit the existing set to tone down the vibrancy and I guess that suggesting a complete trashing of the existing article, after all the work I'd done, is a little discourteous.


 * My other problem is the reorganization of the ranks. The introduction of a new gray division color without knowing why it is there is problematic and I still find myself not sharing the interpretation that there is a gray division all the way up to the flag officer ranks. The TOS uniforms support cadets wearing silver gray serving on assignments and thats what I see Griggs and Number One wearing, but either way we are dealing with supposition. It would have been easier to discuss that in a separate forum than saddling it on to a complete reorganization of the system. -- Captain MKB 18:43, September 13, 2010 (UTC)


 * 8of5, I agree with you about what our lead should be. If a uniform color has appeared in canon, canon should be our guide, otherwise colors should follow the modern comics.  You're right about the gold and coral colors being difficult to tell apart, but that's canon, for good or bad.  Here's an screencap of Colt and Number One, the first picture I found that showed both uniforms:


 * Colt and Number One.jpg


 * Because the uniforms colors are so hard to tell apart, earlier comics, e.g. Early Voyages, often actually treated them as the same. Colt, e.g., wears gold in Early Voyages.  You probably knew all that, but I wanted to be sure, because I've been misunderstood before in this discussion.  With all of that said, I agree that there's probably some room to adjust the shade just a little to made them easier to tell apart.  But I don't think that those colors should be very different from what they are.


 * Captain Mike, thanks for the link to the academy instructor. Maybe the color on the red uniforms should be a little more saturated.  I found a panel in crew that's in darker lighting and shows the uniform as a slightly more vivid red.


 * If you re-read what I wrote, you'll see that I suggested that "Doc" might be wearing McCoy's shiny short-sleeve uniform, and that it might look much brighter than the regular blue tunic under direct lighting. I went on to note that the veteran officer/crewman's uniform was still unexplained.  Griggs addressing an officer in a colored tunic by his first name is also unexplained if he and Number One are cadets.  So is the wearing of normal tunic colors by all definite cadets aboard ship in the previous issue of the same series - including Number One and Griggs.


 * I didn't use the existing images to suggest what I thought the colors should be because you've marked them as not being able to be modified without your permission. So, I worked up a new set of images (which wasn't much work) to show what I thought the insignia should look like.


 * I would appreciate it if you would refrain from snideness and hostility in discussions. This isn't the first time that you've been unnecessarily hostile toward me.  You've rightly pointed out that I should have asked about some things that I haven't, but don't bother to ask me why I did something before making a snide or hostile remark about it.  Maybe I frustrate you.  If I do, I'm sorry.  I'm also frustrated by you, but I try to not let that affect my judgment and statements.  I would appreciate it if you would do the same.


 * Regarding trashing the existing article, I'm not advocating that. I've used your setup as the framework for the structure I proposed.  I only expanded it and used different images.  As I said, I would have simply modified your images if their license had allowed that.  One way in which the images I made are preferable is that they've been released to the public domain, so that issue won't arise again in the future.  I hope you recognize that I've done nearly as much work here as you did.  I think that our efforts are equally worth considering from here. --Archimedean 18:50, September 13, 2010 (UTC)


 * Perhaps we should discuss the gray uniform separately. I think the appearance of the veteran crew member (15 years on the same ship, so probably not a trainee) in the same color as Number One and Griggs indicates that the uniform is worn by non-cadets, regardless of other arguments.  But, like I said, maybe the gray shirts should be discussed separately.


 * I'll increase the saturation on the proposed images. --Archimedean 18:53, September 13, 2010 (UTC)


 * I have not been snide at all, despite your frustrating behavior, and I think it is a big mistake for you to take this to a personal level like that. I'm trying to get you to work with the rest of the wiki by using the framework that is here, but you are picking apart numerous subjects at once and it makes it very difficult to discuss anything. In the past two days, you've uploaded more images than I've been able to look at, including suggesting a replacement for a number of graphics that I worked hard to create. By accusing me of bad behavior, even though I was initially trying to help you include your intended changes, I really think you are breaking faith with this being a reasonable discussion. -- Captain MKB 19:01, September 13, 2010 (UTC)


 * It's not my intent to make this personal. I'm only asking you to refrain from making personal attacks on me.  I'm frustrated by you, you are frustrated by me, but neither of us should let that affect how we deal with each other.


 * Unfortunately, you have been side. Less than an hour ago, you said "But that's apparently not how our new contributor works," which was snide and unnecessary.  You probably didn't mean to let your frustration through like that, but it is what it is.


 * I've uploaded a large number of images because you asked me to. I was describing what several uniforms looked like at different times, and you asked me to upload images to cite my arguments.


 * If you go re-check, I think you'll see that I'm not picking apart numerous subjects at once, but am trying to address a single subject coherently. Your point is taken, though, as far as the gray uniforms.  Those should probably be discussed separately from the other issues with these rank insignia.


 * I appreciate your hard work, and the good faith in which you tried to work with me. Please also appreciate mine.  I'm not trying to accuse you of anything.  I'm asking you to set your frustration aside and work with me like you would if I had never frustrated you. --Archimedean 19:11, September 13, 2010 (UTC)


 * Looking at this previous comment, you start off by accusing me of being snide, but then finish off by denying that you've accused me of anything. You're pretty slick, but I don't like playing word games with you at every turn. There's nothing snide about me discussing your actions. I observed that's not how you operate because I would have preferred you suggested the major change as a statement of intentions before you uploaded dozens of your own images -- that's an honest appraisal of what you are doing here. I could have adjusted the original images and saved you the trouble. As someone who has put the hard work in, that you supposedly appreciate, I would have appreciated the chance to make the original images work rather than replacing them completely. This is why I'm against the composed images you are uploading. -- Captain MKB 05:17, September 14, 2010 (UTC)


 * I didn't mean to accuse you of anything. I was asking you to not make this discussion personal.  An accusation is the start of an argument, and  an argument was not what I wanted.  But here we are.


 * You didn't say "I would have preferred Archimedean suggest the major change as a statement of intentions before uploading dozens of his/her own images." You said "But that's apparently not how our new contributor works," which is derogatory and condescending (i.e. snide).


 * The great irony is that I uploaded the images because of your suggestion on my talk page that I use images to show what I was talking about, instead of just describing it. Because of the problems we'd had communicating, I set up a provisional chart to show just what I meant.  I would have just modified copies of your images to illustrate the discussion, but the license for them doesn't allow modification.  (I still think that a public domain license is a significant virtue of the images I created.)


 * I didn't ask you to modify the images yourself for the same reason that I created them: they were meant to show what I was talking about - to improve our problematic communication. I couldn't very well communicate to you what I thought the images should look like that were supposed to communicate to you what I thought the ranks should look like; the entire point of the making the images was to communicate what wasn't being communicated.


 * Also ironically, the chart is only a statement of intentions. It depicts what I think the actual chart should look like.  That's why it's labeled "Proposed rank table", and this section is titled "Discussion of proposal."


 * I truly didn't mean to offend you. I don't have any objections to images I upload being revised or overridden by others; it didn't occur to me that you might be more attached to yours.  I saw a great example of collaboration on Memory Beta:Votes for approval of supplemental images/approved.  Columbia Clipper uploaded an image that had some problems, and 8of5 re-created a better version of it that they worked together to improve until they both were happy with it.


 * Right now, it sounds like you'll oppose whatever revisions I suggest or make to the images I uploaded, because I inadvertently upset you by uploading them in the first place. (Please, if I'm misreading, correct me.)  I don't see how that's constructive.


 * It's not my intent to deprive you of an opportunity to collaborate. I'm sorry.  I really didn't mean to upset you.  If, when we have a look for the images that we agree on, you'd like to update the current (i.e. your) images to that look, I don't have any objection to that - except that I think public domain images are better.  (What happens if you stop contributing to Memory Beta?  Do the rank images need to be remade from scratch if an alteration needs to be made, or a new color added?)


 * Please, really, I'm not trying to shut you out of this process, and I'm not trying to accuse you of anything. I'm just trying to get this done without any personal issues being involved. --Archimedean 07:09, September 14, 2010 (UTC)

Mike you do seem to be being a bit defensive, let's all try and keep on topic and stop making anything personal or picking apart our semantics. Archimedean has followed the lead of the existing page and image format but tried to refine the images to more accurately reflect the source material, and done quite a good job of it too. I don't see how that can possibly be a bad thing? --8of5 16:20, September 14, 2010 (UTC)


 * I was frustrated by the fact that my insignia could also be adjusted to reflect other source material and I still intend to do that. While it could be perceived as defensive behavior, I have to say no, I'm just disappointed. My real problem is as follows:


 * In reference to the new set on this talk page, my current frustration is that these new version do not illustrate the differences between colors properly -- and they still don't. There have been several re-uploads with no perceptible change in the quality that this talk page discussed. Until there is a perceptible response to your and my suggestion that the saturation/color weight be improved to reflect the need for these to illustrate the difference between similar-looking divisions, I can't say they'd be a positive change. As I initially said, the gray jacket uploads are a great improvement, and should be used. But the gold, beige, blue, red insignia are not satisfactory to me to use on the page. -- Captain MKB 13:19, September 16, 2010 (UTC)

The most recent version of the gold ones seems to help separate them from the "coral" ones quite well now, before they were very similar, now they're reasonably distinct, while still doing a nice job accurately reflecting the source colours. If you want to update your existing insignia to the new colours Mike that's great, I imagine it would help get the update out across the site quicker as these are on a lot of character pages right? If you do do that you might also want to update the striped banding insignia, as from the images posted above the new not-slanty one seems to more accurately reflect what was seen onscreen. --8of5 16:07, September 16, 2010 (UTC)


 * No offense to you at all, Mike, but I would prefer to go with Archimedean's rank set, even if the colors of yours were changed to match them. The new insignia seems more accurate to me (the widths of the stripes look closer to those on the uniforms from the episodes, and I agree that the CPO insignia is less-angled.) Also, the lighting on the stripes and sleeves doesn't seem to match in the existing insignia.  Several of the existing images are also blurry - particularly the newer ones.  Mostly, though, I think Archimedean has point about public domain images versus restricted images.  Having public domain insignia images would be better, all else being equal (and all else would be equal if you altered your images to look like Archimedean's.)


 * At the very least, we should use the cadet sleeve from above. It nicely captures the shiny look of those shirts. --Columbia clipper 02:07, September 18, 2010 (UTC)


 * If the link-correcting workload is at issue, I would be willing to change the links. A quick inspects shows that only roughly 40-60 pages have links to the existing insignia (not counting the images that are also used for the 2260s-2270s ranks).  That shouldn't be too much trouble. --Columbia clipper 02:18, September 18, 2010 (UTC)

CDR insignia
The flashback portion of Best Destiny, set in 2249, implies that the rank insignia for lieutenant and commander were different during these years:


 * "In custody, Lieutenant!" the captain said quickly. He pointed at a little coffee station near the middle of the ship. "We put them in the midships deckhouse as soon as we saw that their identifications were fake. We didn't know when we hired them--" "Save it, Captain," was the growling response. "And I'm a commander."


 * He tapped his rank insignia with a forefinger.

Best Destiny also establishes that at least some red uniforms belong to security. --Archimedean 04:34, September 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'd say that the closest analogue we have is that, even though it took place during the 2250s, Early Voyages showed later 2260s style rank insignia on the crew for a length of time. Since the novel insignia were never seen, all we can really do is say that there were alternate insignia on unspecified uniforms -- possibly these were variants. -- Captain MKB 13:19, September 16, 2010 (UTC)