Memory Beta:Votes for approval of supplemental images

DeathTongue
It has previously been noted that DeathTongue may be a reference to something that appeared in a comic strip, this was noted as background information and an image of the entire band is on the talk page. That is interesting and appropriate, I don't feel it so to take the logo from that comic and, without any indication from the author that there is any connection at all, allocate it to the trekverse band. It might be appropriate to move the whole band image into the main article within the background section, it seems wrong to make up any actually connection between the two. -- 8of5 23:05, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

VOTES
 * Keep -- Data Noh 23:17, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep --Turtletrekker 00:05, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep --Emperorkalan 11:31, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

DISCUSSION Since the comic strip reference is apparently deemed relevant enough to include in a footnote on the page itself, I figured the band logo from the strip (the only image that would be available) would be equally relevant. I don't really see this as any less accurate than the community-accepted fanon logos we use for various organizations (such as the FNS), unless there are copyright issues of which I am unaware (if there are, I'm up for immediately deleting this). -- Data Noh 23:17, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Thing is, we do have "any indication from the author" -- Dayton Ward's story annotations -- which is linked to directly from the "Almost... But Not Quite" article. I'm mystified as to why this is now suddenly the standard of image acceptability, since to the best of my knowledge, David Mack has never said Min Zife looks anything like Eisenhower. --Seventy 23:25, 19 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I refer the naysayers to Dayton Ward's Annotations.


 * "Page 261: "DeathTongue." A reference to a Sunday edition of the great "Bloom County" comic strip. "DeathTongue" was the name of a band that Bill the Cat and company formed, a precursor to the more mainstream "Billy and the Boingers." I have their first album up for auction on eBay."

Data Noh: Well the difference is acknowledging where a name came from (as the annotations do) and saying they are one in the same is very different, if the band in the trekverse and Bill the Cats band are meant to be one in the same then fine, but that wasn't clear from the previous note, it was just random connection.

And Seventy I quite agree, if I'd have been involved when alot of our supplimental images were suggested I'd have voted against. We dont need author approval, but we also shouldnt make unnesisary jumps, the annotations confirm the link, I accept that, but without that it was just two fictional bands that happened to share a name. -- 8of5 00:14, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Altered Harb Tanzer Image
]] The only official image ever released of novel character Harb Tanzer (top image) in comic form was colored wrong in two significant ways-- first, his hair in the novels is always described as being white, not brown. Second, his uniforms turtleneck and strap are the wrong departmental color.

I started "fixing" the image, seeing if a more accurate rendition could be made. For the green of the turtlneck and strap, I extracted the color of McCoy's uniform found.

For the hair, I tried to "replace the dark brown with a darker grey and the lighter brown with white. I tried to keep the texture and style of the hair consistant with the original image, but that was the tricky part. The bottom image is what I came up with.

I think that, if approved, the line about the coloring error that is currently there, should be replaced with something like, "The above image has been altered in order to portay a more accurate image of the character. For the image in it's original form click here. ."

Votes

 * Yes--Turtletrekker 06:50, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
 * No -- Data Noh 12:49, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
 * No --Seventy 14:26, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
 * No --8of5 15:07, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
 * No --Emperorkalan 01:50, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Discussion
I'm not familiar with this character, can you explain why the image should be changed to reflect how he is described in an appearance in a novel over how he actually appears in a comic? --8of5 06:59, 5 May 2007 (UTC)


 * In all of Diane Duane's novels, and he is in most of them, his "shock-white" hair is often described as his most noticable feature. I know comics back then didn't like to use a lot of white because the image on the other side of the old newsprint comic page would bleed through, so that may have been the source of the error.
 * As for the uniform, as Captain Mike pointed out in the article, Tanzer is always described as being under McCoy, in a sub-section of medical. Hence the green. --Turtletrekker 07:05, 5 May 2007 (UTC)


 * ETA: I've actually found his hair described as "silver" in "The Wounded Sky" (Ch.2), "Spock's World" (Enterprise: one), and "My Enemy, My Ally"(Ch.2) with a minimum of searching. I'm sure I remember the "shock-white" decription from somewhere. --Turtletrekker 07:17, 5 May 2007 (UTC)


 * But this is how he appeared in the comic, if a character was described in books as having big ears and then had little ones in the comic would you want to magic them big? There was a discussion over at the Trek BBS recently over how one of the New Frontier characters had less red than described (in the novels) skin the Double Time, same issue?
 * The character could have dyed his hair and had a go in another department for a few weeks? Who knows, but from the sounds of it this isn't much different than any other continuity issue, show both note differences. --8of5 07:11, 5 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I would be more in favor of only using the original licensed images, and noting any discrepancies. -- Data Noh 12:49, 5 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes that was what I meant actually, show the original, the both being the text decribing him differently, and note the differences. --8of5 13:56, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

I find it fascinating that this topic would even be broached before there was even an effort at writing a halfway decent article for the character. When the explanatory sidenote for the complementary illustration is 3x longer than the actual entry, there's something very wrong. To hell with the pic, in either form. --Seventy 14:26, 5 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Agreed, absolutely. --Vote Saxon 20:51, 5 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree with the spirit of your comment, but not your tone, Seventy. The supplementary image is probably not going to be called for, but a simple "no" would have sufficed. -- Captain MKB 16:01, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

No sweat off my behind, as I just did the image out of fun. Seventy, you take this place way too seriously if something as monumentaly insignificant as this gets you all hot and bothered. This is a wiki about a fictional universe. Furthermore, its about fictional aspects of a fictional universe. You know, none of get paid to do this. We do this for fun, and it quite frankly just really isn't all that important in the grand scheme of things. Certainly it's not important enough to get even a little bit upset over. Bad attitudes like yours just bring the place down and discourages new contributers, and will only serve to be detrimental to the wiki in the long run. Remember, if you're not doing this for fun, then you need to get out into the real world more.

That being said, this whole place isn't as fun as it used to be. Once upon a time, supplemental images were embraced instead just being rejected in a knee-jerk "no" reaction. It was a lot more open (But still with boundarys. What Vorta Expert tried to get away with would never have been tolerated) and open to speculations based on established facts. This place has truly gone from being under-moderated to having too many chefs stirring the soup.

As for the length of the article, it will soon be in the upper 10% in length, as there is more than enough info about the character to make having a pic in the article worthwhile. As for why I didn't do so sooner, I saw that Captain Mike seemed to be writing up characters from My Enemy, My Ally, and I didn't want to step on any toes.

Sheesh... --Turtletrekker 22:46, 12 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm OK with the use of altered images (as long as they are identified as such). My objection is merely technical: the altered image shown is very washed out. It needs better masking so that only the areas to be altered are changed. So my "no" is for this particular image; if a better version is presented, I'm inclined to approve it.--Emperorkalan 02:03, 13 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm fine with altering images if they are to show something otherwise unshowable, a mirror universe version of someone not seen onscreen for instance. But that is not the case here, this is a continuity error, I don't see how it's any different than an error in a text, note it's there but ultimately we have to accept that is how it is in licensed product, it is not our place to force things into one continuity. --8of5 02:14, 13 May 2007 (UTC)


 * We should totally have a contributors' picnic or something. Happiness :o) -- Data Noh 02:43, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Colorized IKS emblem
I'd like opinions on wether we can (or should) use a colorized version of the Imperial Klingon States emblem. For the record: FASA only printed a B&W version (in The Triangle (book), of which the unmodified version shown is a direct scan. The never produced (nor specifically described) a color one. However, since it's a bit stark in a color medium, I made a colorized version based on the color sceme of the TOS Klingon emblem we have up (see, for example, Battle of Donatu V). The lightning/squigggly bolt uses one of the darker reds from our general Klingon Empire emblem. Is this within the bounds of acceptability here?--Emperorkalan 20:56, 26 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm definitely happy with the image and having one with color is definitely preferable. It's not as if you have changed anything about the symbol itself and the colors used have been used for the official Klingon trefoil design.  --Dr. John Smith 21:03, 26 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Hmm, that's very nice, but I'm not sure about the appropriateness, I could be swayed either way. --8of5 21:46, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I think the nearest example would be Image:Al-Rashid.jpg (the Presidential Transport), in that it merely interpolates within a well-established framework. It's not being sprung from whole cloth here -- it's just adding color to an actual FASA design. B&W was an appropriate choice for a printed page, but on a web page, next to all the blues and reds from the hyperlinked text, it seems oddly jarring. (and the whole point of such an illustration is to add "color" to the text, not throw you out of context by thinking "Yikes! That looks AWFUL!".)


 * I'd insist on the TOS color scheme even if it weren't my own item because that's what FASA used whenever they printed a Klingon emblem in color. For me, the real question was how to handle the bolt, and lacking any clear markers I made a relatively conservative choice. It's also an item where we can clearly record its pedigree (unlike, say, the Starfleet Intelligence symbol we use), so we don't leave any room for confusion.--Emperorkalan 11:29, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Generally I am opposed to modifying perfectly acceptable images just to make them fit into what we like best, and to that end I will not vote in favour of this image. However, this is a reasonable sort of update so I won't vote against it either.--8of5 09:07, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Mirror B'Elanna images
These two images were uploaded by TorresOmega593 on 2 July, but obviously being a new user he wasn't aware of the procedure for supplemental images. At any rate, the image is quite good and the only other alternative image of the B'Elanna (mirror) would be from the cover for Obsidian Alliances. However, if we do keep an image I would go for the color version. --Dr. John Smith 09:12, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Could be worse, but could also be better, and as a cover image is available I think we should use that.--8of5 01:09, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Hey, thanks for the compliments. These images were uploaded by me, they are only sketches, the final one is not complete, but if you like, you can remove them until i have the final one complete then you can take a vote as to whether you want the Mirror Torres image kept or not. Thanks guys!

Vote

 * Keep colored version, delete other. --Dr. John Smith 09:11, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete both versions --8of5 01:09, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete both --Seventy 16:49, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete both --Jdvelasc 17:10, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Discussion
Looks good to me - assuming we have the artist's permission. --Jdvelasc 05:18, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Votes

 * Yes --Jdvelasc 05:18, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Series of Star Fleet divisional emblems
The FASA RPG introduced a system of small divisional emblems for different parts of "Star Fleet" -- many were only seen as clip art obscured by text.

I have redrawn some and added them to the FASA Star Fleet seal, as described in the books, as how the divisional emblems would have been shown, with the text altered to reflect the division in question.

The first of which was the Starfleet Intelligence logo, I have also prepared one based on their SFMC insignia.

Since these are based on images from the non-canon source materials themselves, with only rearrangement and cosmetic removal of markup and text, I think they are fairly elementary additions. -- Captain MKB 18:27, 21 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Bit late... but sounds good to me :) --8of5 04:34, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Add another late yes.--Emperorkalan 12:43, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Federation Council and Palais de la Concorde Insignia
An artist who posts on the TrekBBS under the name "Harry" was kind enough to produce some insignia for the Federation Council and Palais based upon the Federation President seal. We have his permission to add them to Memory Beta, so I'd hope we could do just that. -- Sci 18:52 27 FEB 2008 UTC


 * Is there anything in the novels that describes the Council and Palais having their own logos? If not I think we should just stick with the standard federation emblem. --8of5 04:34, 28 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree with 8 that barring a little more direct sourcing, we should shy away from adding insignias just because they look neat. However, some of the other flags and things in that thread are basically "clean-ups" of flags and banners seen on-screen, and so might be appropriate, even if just for an "unidentified banner/flag" page. (Just a side note: A while back I made external links to Harry's Titan Fleet Yards site for the Marshall and Mann classes. We could probably do the same for the FASA and SFTM designs he has there too. (not using the art, just pointing to his site for better-quality scematics.))--Emperorkalan 12:52, 28 February 2008 (UTC)


 * If that's the case, then I wonder if we should reconsider what the point of having supplemental images really is. We didn't require direct evidence that the Federation Department of Temporal Investigations has its own insignia before allowing that one, for example. -- Sci 23:43 7 MARCH 2008 UTC


 * Well indeed, there are quite a lot of images voted in around the same time that I would probably have rejected then, and certainly would now if they were nominated. --8of5 23:48, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Image:Bombay.jpg
Submitted by Cicero. -- Cicero 13:11, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Artist's conception of the USS Bombay. -- Cicero

I do believe there are several sources we could get imagery of a pre-refit Miranda class vessel from (RPGs, Legacy, ). So I see no need use fan-made imagery for this purpose. --8of5 14:44, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

I haven't seen a TOS Miranda before that wasn't a crummy game model or a line drawing. This is pretty cool (I know that shouldn't be a key rationale, but it does contribute), and I'd like to see it continue for the Bombay. . . and maybe other TOS Mirandas?--Efryed 06:16 17 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Let's see a comprehensibly modeled image rather than a gif-bash. And licensed sources supercede fan images regardless of quality... -- Captain MKB 07:09, 17 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Why would that be? If a fan-made image matches the specifications of the licensed source, but is of better quality, why reject the fan image?  Too, why would it matter how the image was made?  What's better about a render than a photo-manip?  It's just the final image that matters.  How do you know it isn't a render, anyway?  I can't tell.--Efryed 14:43 18 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Because there is another wiki for fan made stories and images. This wiki is for licensed images and stories. See the difference? --> we should use the licensed images whenever possible -- Captain MKB 04:38, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
 * You've got a point somewhat, Captain MKB, but I don't think we should include fan-made illustrative images of superior quality to available liscenced images in those we exclude. (Long-time reader, first time poster, but I'd like to think I'm included in the 'we' of Memory Beta.)  Since images are included only to illustrate and to make the site more appealing, I don't see what the big deal is, especially since the author of two of the Vanguard novels expressed his positive opinion of the image over at the trekbbs.  I don't really see why a licensed image of lesser (or even poor) quality should supersede a better image that's made by a fan when the whole purpose of images is to make articles nicer looking and clearer.  My two cents.--bluethought 21:12, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Images are included only to [...] make the site more appealing -- Not true actually -- most wikis restrict images that are not informative in their nature. We're trying to convey how publications and media illustrate these things. If the ship hadn't been seen, I might not push this point, but this ship has been sufficiently visualized in multiple sources -- by using the fan image we are choosing not to inform a reader about a valid published medium -- and our purpose is to inform the reader about published media.


 * I might even grant the point that a comic image of a ship might not be high-quality, but the video game source that has a ship like this is (to my knowledge) of a superior nature -- we should pursue that end before we start reinventing the wheel with original images. -- Captain MKB 22:31, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

My question for Cicero is just which "crummy game model(s)" he's referring to: Models from game mods? (which we have avoided thus far) or models from an actual game? (I can't think of any outside of Legacy, and I don't count that as a "crummy" model.) As for the image in question, it's a better photo-manip than many I've seen, so I don't want to discourage Cicero from making future contributions of this sort. How about a Legacy screencap edited to the Bombay's markings? I'll see what I can do about providing a potential base image for that.--Emperorkalan 11:40, 25 June 2008 (UTC)


 * VOTES
 * Yes -- Cicero 14:38, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
 * No--8of5 14:44, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes--Efryed 06:16 17 June 2008 (UTC)
 * No--Captain MKB 07:09, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes--bluethought 21:02, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
 * No--Seventy 23:29, 24 June 2008 (UTC)