Talk:Confederacy of Vulcan

Isn't this page a tad incomplete to be sporting a "Featured Article" box?--Emperorkalan 18:01, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Name

Star Trek: Star Charts calls the Vulcan state the Confederacy of Surak, should we move to the more recent citation? Is there more than one source for either name? --8of5 21:24, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

"Planetary Confederation of 40 Eridani" is in both Star Fleet Technical Manual and "Dreadnought!" as the 23rd century name of the state. The FASA game lists "Confederacy of Vulcan" which could be seen as a provincial/colloquial shortening (as can the Star Charts version). The current name does have two mentions, as oppose to each of the others' single mentions -- and all seem to be in the same vein, meaning they could represent shortenings or colloquialisms as opposed to straight contradictions. -- Captain MKB 02:43, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Sure could be a shortening or colloquialism, but the presentation would seem to deny that intent "OFFICIAL NAME Confederacy of Surak (founded 370A.D.)". Personally I prefer Confederacy of Vulcan, bit catchier, but as Planetary Confederation of 40 Eridani has two whole sources, one a novel, I guess it pulls the weight. --8of5 04:52, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

So we're changing this to the far more obscure version that hasn't been used for 20 years? On the "strength" of a mere two cites (one of which is drawn directly from the other)? That doesn't exactly strike me as a rock-solid foundation for the change. By that measure, one could make a far better case simply using the name "Vulcan". Did I miss a more extensive discussion of this topic somewhere?--Emperorkalan 14:47, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Well Mike and Sci had a silent moving war between the current name and Confederacy of Vulcan, so yeah, easy to miss. Problem is they are all obscure, two references from an old source, one reference from another old source and another reference from a new one. As you say it would indeed be very easy to make the case for simply "Vulcan" but there are, as we can see, various name for the name of the state. With so few sources we have to decide what has more weight, a small numbers advantage or the most contemporary citation? --8of5 15:47, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Another possibility is the range of the governments -- the "Planetary Confederation" is an interplanetary government, while the "Confederacy of Surak" is listed as the government of one planet. It seems the "Confederacy of Surak" is a state which is part of the larger whole of 40 Eridani's Planetary Confederation. -- Captain MKB 16:24, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

That wouldn't be consistent with the other entries in the book, Andoria's official name is the Andorian Empire, Qo'noS the Klingon Empire, etc. --8of5 16:47, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry, go over how that's inconsistent again? The Star Charts book lists the governmental name of each planet in the field "OFFICIAL NAME" -- but it doesn't say that the planet cannot be part of a larger governance, does it?

For example, Star Charts says that the government of Earth is called "United Earth", but the Technical Manual and Dreadnought! say the government of Sol System is the "United Nations Sol System". Seems to me "United Earth" is part of "United Nations Sol System" -- how is that inconsistent with either? Keeping in mind that both the "UN Sol Sys" and "PC of 40 Eri" are part of the larger Federation, as stated by all sources involved.. -- Captain MKB 17:35, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

It's inconsistent with your argument that the CoS could be the planetary state within the Interplanetary state of the PCo40E because the book presents planet's official names as those of their interplanetary states (if one exists).

The states as identified in the Technical Manual (and novels referencing that) are simply out of date, the only reason it's called United Nations Sol System is because United Earth hadn't been identified yet (though that's a slightly different situation as the Sol system contains several in(ter)dependant states). It's hard to think of comparable situations for this because all the different names are obscure unlike other cases of names being updated like Vulcanian to Vulcan, Kling to Qo'noS, Zefram Cochrane being Human not Alpha Centuran, etc. --8of5 17:57, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

If I might cut in a few, well, months late -- we can't presume that United Earth is part of a larger polity called the "United Nations Sol System" because ENT's "The Forge" established that it is United Earth that maintains diplomatic relations with foreign states (for instance, having an embassy on Vulcan); in other words, it is United Earth that has statehood. Obviously, new information from the canon trumps something from a twenty-something-year-old tech manuel. Further, it's been established in the novel Section 31: Rogue that Mars at some point prior to the Federation attained independence from United Earth. The logical conclusion is that United Earth is the state which governed Earth, Luna, Mars, Alpha Centauri, Vega, and most of the other human colonies known to exist prior to the Federation, that United Earth lost sovereignty over Mars and Alpha Centauri (which was established to be one of the founding Federation Member States in Articles of the Federation), that prior to Martian independence, UE had complete authority over the Sol system and shared it with Mars afterwords, and that UE was one of the founding Federation Member States. -- Sci 13:17 10 FEB 2008 UTC

And several others are simply the name of the planetary state -- for example, Earth, Mars and Luna all have the name of each planetary state. What part of the book told you that Vulcan's name was planetary or interplanetary? It seems to me that United Earth, the Luna Colonies and the United Martian Colonies are probably all part of the Sol System government, which in turn is part of the Federation. What is different about Vulcan's case? Is there some subtext you read that haven't told us about or is it your own presupposition? -- Captain MKB 18:41, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

It's consistent with how each planet is presented, the highest government that planet is in (under the galactic super-states), Star Charts evidently doesn't work on your assumption that there is a sol system government. Heck we don't even know if Vulcan has an interplanetary state, Star Charts just says the Vulcan state, to whatever extent, is the Confederacy of Surak, the Technical Manual just says that state is the Planetary Confederation of 40 Eridani. You and I can try and interpret that all we want but all we actually know is there are three different names for the Vulcan state. --8of5 18:55, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Adding to the fun, the Star Trek Spaceflight Chronology did not give the Vulcan govenment any name other than "Vulcan", and located their system at Epsilon Eridani. The only organization specifically mentioned was the Vulcan Science Academy. May I suggest "Vulcan (polity)" for the Vulcan political entity (government), and noting the several conflicting names and the ambiguity. --Emperorkalan 00:50, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Potentially a good idea there. A thought, is it just one FASA book that gives Confederacy of Vulcan, or a whole load of citations from that publisher? --8of5 01:08, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Just to drag up an old topic... I think Emperorkalan had the right idea, there are three or four different names this page could have, all are pretty obscure. I suggest moving to Vulcan state and listing all the names at the top of the page, any objections? --8of5 14:51, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I'd prefer one of the "Confederacy" names actually -- since all three names are in the same vein, we should at least use the one common part -- all are 'confederations' of a sort. -- Captain MKB 15:53, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

In that case I would suggest "Confederacy of Vulcan" as it uses the most obvious (same) name for the people and planet. And it’s also less of a mouthful. --8of5 16:03, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I'll second putting everything under "Confederacy of Vulcan"--Emperorkalan 16:48, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I'll third putting it all under "Confederacy of Vulcan." -- Sci 13:18 10 FEB 2008 UTC