I think the "gallery" is the wrong place to place an exhaustive list of dates.
Also there is no "present" in Memory Beta's POV. We should make efforts not to use such incorrect expressions. -- Captain MKB 17:25, October 11, 2010 (UTC)
- I would argue that making a gallery is the perfect way to list those dates. It provides a quick reference against the actual image the Federation used; otherwise, we'd have to list dates and include images separately, and attempt to describe each individual image in text. That sounds impractical to me. I'd argue that the exact format of the gallery of images of the Federation Seals is irrelevant, however; but each should be captioned with the years that version of the Seal was used. -- Sci 17:40 11 OCT 2010 UTC
- I'm saying that the dates are going to be too complicated if we maintain the style you started -- each symbol was used concurrently with another symbol, so it does not seem possible to introduce ranges of time where one symbol was preferable. The most common great seal was used in 2268, again in the 2280s and 2290s, and throughout the 24th century. The "humanoid faces" version was used in the 2260s (alongside the more common 2364 seal) and in the 2270s and 2280s (alongside now two other seals) and the 2271 seal remains in limited use well into the 24th century, even though the more common Federation seal seemingly takes precedence after 2290 or so. There is no "order" as you seem to be trying to identify. -- Captain MKB 17:57, October 11, 2010 (UTC)
- I don't think there's any evidence that any of the Seal variants were used concurrently. The Okuda Seal was used in TNG, in the last two TOS films, and in "In A Mirror, Darkly;" the "Zero Hour" Seal was used only in "Zero Hour" and "TATV," both of which featured that scene on the same date (2161); and the TMP Seal was only used in TOS movies 1-4. The SFTM Seal was never featured in a film or TV series. As such, I'd say it's perfectly reasonable to list the dates for the canonical ones (Zero Hour: c. 2161-Unestablished; Okuda Seal: c. 2268, c. 2287-Unestablished; SFTM Seal: 2161-Unestablished; TMP Seal: 2271-2287) without issue. (I see no particular reason to acknowledge the fact that the SFTM's seal has been supplanted by canonical depictions that contradict it, though it obviously has.) -- Sci 18:12 11 OCT 2010 UTC
But we have numerous cases of these symbols used concurrently, even though you "have no reason to acknowledge the fact" -- this wiki still acknowledges canon fact, making your personal preference as stated here not allowable under our policy.
I have recently revealed news about the SFTM emblem, as seen in canon in the Movie era -- it is posted on the Federation building in San Francisco (as seen in HD ST4 screencaps) This means that the 2364 seal was used in 2268, the 2271 seal was then used, but the SFTM seal was used in 2286, and still in 2364 prominently displayed on Starfleet Headquarters in TNG Conspiracy - even though there were 2287 uses of the 2271 emblem and that the later period had the 2364 emblem in use for many different points in the 24th century. The emblems are all from canon and coexist intermittently. You can't ignore the evidence and state that you prefer to believe otherwise. -- Captain MKB 18:30, October 11, 2010 (UTC)
- I'm very astonished to see that the SFTM Seal was used on the San Fran building -- I'd never noticed that before! I'd always thought it was the TMP Seal they used. But, yeah, squinting at it, you are right -- the SFTM Seal is, indeed, canonical. Neat!
- As for those other uses you cite -- you still see the Betsy Ross flag flying on government buildings now and then, but does that mean that the Betsy Ross Flag is the current Flag of the United States? -- Sci 04:37 12 OCT 2010 UTC
- No, but in the case of Federation seals, it means that by simple observation, we cannot tell when one seal "ends" and where the next begins -- the most modern seal originated before 2268, but we have two examples of other seals used (one instituted) after that one began -- I don't think we should formulate "start" and "end" dates for seals when all we have are limited observations of their use, especially when we don't have any explicit mention of reasoning for the seals being changed out. It would be a lot less of a headache and a lot more accurate to non-canon sources if we avoided putting such speculations in the article. -- Captain MKB 11:38, October 12, 2010 (UTC)
Sometime in the next week, possibly today, I'm going to track down an image created from the Federation Seal seen in ENT episodes: "Zero Hour", "These Are the Voyages..." (which was distinct from all other versions) and upload it for inclusion on this page, unless someone else beats (or has already beaten) me to it. I'll be certain to get correct attribution. -- Sci 17:52 11 OCT 2010 UTC