Is the Brave New World reference actually referring to an alternate version of the same alliance? The original article refers specifically to the 23rd century alliance which resulted in the exchange of cloaking technology and D7s. This new reference sounds like an alternate take on 24th century events. --8of5 15:50, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
The First Peer[edit source]
So, The First Peer gives another version of the alliance's formation in which Vrax is still Praetor of the empire and it was spurred by Romulan goals, not Klingon manipulation (there was a spy involved, but he wasn't pulling the strings of the Praetor and it didn't appear he was pushing the alliance). So, uh, how should I document this? --Long Live the United Earth 00:57, April 2, 2010 (UTC)
- I think the issue is bigger than just this one assumed contradiction -- where is our source stating there is only one Praetor? Diane Duane's Romulan Way established multiple praetors for different job roles, which is a mirror of how the term was used in ancient Rome.. -- Captain MKB 03:10, April 2, 2010 (UTC)
Good point, but I'd say that the novels (besides The Romulan Way of course) always saying the Praetor and Nemesis both suggest pretty heavily that there is 1 Praetor, but I don't recall one stating flat out that there was only 1 Praetor.--Long Live the United Earth 03:23, April 2, 2010 (UTC)
- I think that previous contributors to our articles about governments and positions have been assuming a static power structure, which seems foolish -- if Shinzon was intent on becoming dictator, of course he would consolidate all power to his position, but that wouldn't be retroactive.
- For example, Hitler jury-rigged the positions of Chancellor and President into his Fuhrer title, but this didn't last after him, obviously -- i think that there's a possibility that every Romulan government 'plays' with the positional requirements to suit each incoming administration. That's certainly how the Romans did it when they invented the praetor position. At some points in Roman history, praetors were provincial dictators and judicial representatives, but at other points they gathered more centralized power, but as they were succeeded, the power would vacuum over to other consuls and even a few emperors. I think we need to take a closer look at the amount of detail and the time periods of other praetors to find out the 'flavor' of their governments and not assume they have a 100% fixed position. -- Captain MKB 17:53, April 2, 2010 (UTC)
While I agree in general we have issues with certain political articles making assumptions as you describe Mike, I don’t think that's the case here. The article as it stands is mostly based on John Byrne's Romulan comics, which run from early TOS TV era, to some time after the episodes, so throughout the late 2360s, and very clearly depict the Praetor as the singular, absolute, and hereditary, ruler of the Romulan Empire. Complimenting the strong implication in TNG canon, and reinforced in novels that the Praetor, singular, is the Romulan head of state, not referring to multiple people/roles. But maybe this is an issue for the Praetor talk page...
I've not read this new story yet, who the praetor is is clearly in contradiction, how about other story points, is there anything complimentary between this new novella and the comics stories, when do contradictions begin, when do they end, etc. --8of5 16:30, April 9, 2010 (UTC)
- First off, sorry for not responding earlier Mike, this discussion slipped my mind. Anyway, I pretty much agree with 8of5 there are strong implications throughout the stories that there is a single, all powerful praetor.
- As for the differences, the idea for the alliance comes from Proconsul Toqel as a solution to new cloaking devices requiring more power and the Romulans not having a ship that can generate that much power. Then Toqel meets with Grodak and they work out the basic details of the alliance and soon after the Romulans began installing cloaking devices on D7s. Then the Romulans test the ships against the USS Defiant and plan to attack a Federation outpost but the Klingons hit it first.
- The main difference (besides the different Praetors) seems to be the Romulan initiation of the alliance, but this story may still fit with the Klingon manipulation part, to a point, as Ditrius was a Klingon spy and Toqel's underling so he may have influenced her towards the alliance. So, most of this story may fit in with the comics, but it just doesn't seem right to me.--Long Live the United Earth 02:12, April 10, 2010 (UTC)
You know, aside from the praetor issue the stories aren't too badly misaligned, as there's similar thing going on with technology exchange between the two powers in the comics. However those exact details are very contradicty so I suggest the following form for inclusion: Split the "Formation" section into two subsections, like so:
==Formation== Background note on how there are two distinctly different continuities with different political players but similar outcomes ===New Praetor continuity=== ===Vrax continuity===
And then maybe expand the technology exchange section to include info from the new story too. --8of5 17:23, April 10, 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks for the suggestion. I added that in and there was too much extra on the technology exchange, but I added what there was.--Long Live the United Earth 02:37, April 11, 2010 (UTC)