Okay, there seems to be a disagreement here, and I suppose this discussion template is as good a place as any to figure things out: What to do with The Return establishing that Sulu went on to become Federation President? The problem boils down to the fact that the Shatner novels are acknowledged by Pocket to take place in a separate continuity than the mainstream novels -- hence Taking Wing completely contradicting Captain's Blood, for instance. Most of the non-Shatnerverse novels of late have implied that Hikaru died sometime in the early 2300s, and no mention has ever been made of him being president. Further, presidents from novels that have since been contradicted, such as Prime Directive's Sukio Hirashito, or from sources that contradict the novels, such as Sarboran, have also been excluded from the list.
So, what do we do with Sulu from here? I vote to have him excluded from the main template, but to retain a succession box that makes note of his being president in an alternate continuity. What say ye? --
Sci 23:33 1 March 2006 UTC
That sounds like the best solution. I recently put a disclaimer in the Jean-Luc Picard article under the descriptions for Behind Enemy Lines and Tunnel Through the Stars stating that they contradict the "main" continuity and may actually transpire in the Shatnerverse. -Turtletrekker
- Sorry, when I re-added Sulu I didn't realize that he had been added and removed. Which books mention his death?
- I vote that we include the conflicting presidents, but that the contradiction is noted. They could be in parentheses or in a anther cell labeled "alternate continuities." --Chops 01:18, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
- The books haven't made things explicit, yet -- it's mostly been innuendo in Twilight and Serpents Among the Ruins. I like the idea of including the conflicting presidents in the box but puting them inside parenthesises. -- Sci 07:34 3 March 2006 UTC
- Why is Vanderbilt "alternate continuity"? -- Captain M.K.B. 18:05, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
- Because the method of his election contradicts what was established about presidential elections in A Time for War, A Time for Peace, as does the concept of a Federation Vice President. Further, it establishes the UFP as being incorporated on 11 October 2161, while the novel Last Full Measure establishes the Federation to have been incorporated on 12 August 2161. On top of this, the Picard Family Album never appeared onscreen, nor has it ever been published as a licensed piece of fiction; I think we're being enormously generous in including it here at all, since it arguably falls out of Memory Beta's purview, but whatdahey. :) -- Sci 15:06 13 MARCH 2007 UTC
New Edits Edit
Okay, a couple of questions on how we're going to format this:
Why are we only listing decades in parentheses instead of their specific years of office if those years are known? For instance, we know that Min Zife served from 2373 to 2379 (A Time to Kill/Heal, Articles, and Enterprises of Great Pitch and Motion), and we know that Jaresh-Inyo served from 2369 to 2373.
Secondly, why say it's listed by "year" if it's not actually listed by year? It's being listed by decade. I understand getting rid of the "by Gregorian Calender decade" if we're not actually listing them by decade, but now we are. -- Sci 05:44 7 MAR 2010 UTC
- I had no idea what specific year those presidents were inaugurated - i've never read any of those books. thank you for giving us that information to expand the table.
- I think there's some confusion with how I set up this table -- there's no need to specify 'by century' because both lists have century dividers -- the difference is one set of names will have stardates after the names (by stardate) and one set of names will have years after them (by year).. i'm sorry if there was any confusion about how i set that up. does this make sense. I don't think we need to specify the Gregorian calendar here - all our dates use the same Earth calendar used in canon, so why note it? -- Captain MKB 06:49, March 7, 2010 (UTC)
- Okay. Well, first off, it's important to note that Articles never established what decades al-Rashid, T'Maran, and sh'Rothress served in. That was my conjecture from 2006; I'm happy to throw that out, but we should probably refrain from adding specific decades, since, for all we know, they could have served as late as the 2180s and 2190s.
- As for other Presidents -- we know that Wescott served during the 2267 Klingon crisis (Errand of Fury) and that he served during the term that followed the 2264 election (that election having been established in Vanguard: Harbinger). Articles establishes that he left office when that term expired. Harbinger has an internal monologue where Tim Pennington refers to "the president" as having been in that election, rather than a former president; that strongly implies that Wescott served from at least 2261 to 2269. That is a matter of interpretation, but I think we'd have a strong case to put him as "c. 2261-2269)
- Ra-ghoratreii was established to take office in 2289 and serve three terms, until 2300, in Articles.
- I can give you more info later. -- Sci 06:11 7 MAR 2010 UTC
- For those first three, I consider the decades an acceptable generalization to give us some basic data for the chart -- while i've said we should hesitate to assign them years of succession based on estimations, estimating by the decade seems a useful tool, and makes good use of your work on the timeline. The basic information you made the timeline with is sound, as is your reasoning, i just think that generalized decades are a good way of 'stepping back' from creating specific dates based on estimations. Unless you think there are other possible decades for these Presidents, i'd say keep them as they are now and also that i appreciate the work you did laying down the rationalization for those estimates.
- Again, for those 'strong cases' like Wescott, without solid numerical data, i'd also like to present an estimation.
- Everything else, its good source info with specific dates -- again, i appreciate you sourcing it out for this. -- Captain MKB 07:20, March 7, 2010 (UTC)